discussion about maps

Kurupt · Post by **Kurupt** » Mon Mar 08, 2004 4:01 pm

A trick? Choosing a map you like is now called a trick?

Anyway, you make it sound like we are the lamest clan around for playing Mesto as homemap (sometimes). When we just started c0w we never played Mesto before, untill we got owned on it by some Finnish clan, Amnesia, if I'm right. After something like that you got two options; refuse to play Mesto ever again or practise it so you can beat them next time. Maybe it's easier to choose the first option, but we tried the second and made up some tactics for it. After playing it sometimes we managed to beat Amnesia on Mesto and then it turned out to be our homemap. Seriously, and now you say it's not a "good and respectable performance" when we win a match because of that? I'm more proud for winning a match because of our map, just because we invested time in it to be good on it. It's your own choice to practise this map too and beat the crap out of us for playing this lame map. You know the maplist of your opponents in the leagues weeks before you really have to play them. Our knowledge of the map can never be an advantage, only if you decide NOT to practise it and spend time on it.

And to close this post with an ignorant statement too;

"as for me personally i dont think it's really a good and respectable performance if you win a league just because you dont play your opponents homemap. for me the teams that play like that have just made up a law .. so they can ABUSE it!! (exaggeration, be warned!)"

/me strokes mr mirror

iler · Post by **iler** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 4:18 am

ToMMics wrote:jazzie you see a chance in winning by the advantage of knowing a map the other team does not know?! that makes you feel a winner?

i think the strongest team is good at all maps. it does not depend on the map. what do you fear?

i dont see any skill in winning by choosing a map that is not suitable for a 4on4 for example.

lookin at cs esports the teams are given a map to play against each other. they dont know it till the game starts.

And again we are playing aq, it's useless to compare it to something like cs. Cs is way bigger etc. And if the other team doesn't know the map that's their fault. If it's official and your team likes it why the h*** shouldn't we play it then? Maybe you guys should play more not so well known maps in .de and not to generate some rules that limit aq as the way it's ment to be played. So why not changing all the way to cs-side if you fancy that so much? I like that aq is different than cs or q3dm etc. The difference is the thing that makes me (and I think most of the ppl playing this game) to choose aq.

ToMMics · Post by **ToMMics** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 5:12 am

what do you think why they limited the mappool in cs? in order to be different from aq? ... no cuz it makes sense focusing on some maps.

anyways to put an end to this senseless discussion. Every Team can play their homemap in ESAQL.

thats what the other thread is for. limiting the homemap to ONE is a good compromise i think.

don't forget. im doing this keeping aq stayin alive. if you dislike something, talk to me. its the community that keeps aq living. not me. im only doing my part.

Post by **mirror** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 8:42 am

whew.. why is everyone so stressed? can't we just discuss about something if we have a different opinion? just be cool and talk

@kurupt: maaaan, i didnt say i dont respect your skill @mesto (must be awesome, never saw you playin), but i dont see the point why it should be such a great deal to rape some team that has never pld or even seen the map be4? i feel better when i know that my enemy knows this map and that he is SKILLED at it. what you mean?

@iler: as tommics already said, its not about being like counterstrikers.. but you cant deny that there has to be some sense behind making just a small mappool. for me it seems that noone in here even can admin THAT. for me it's just undisputable.

@tommics: sry but thats one of the most silliest things i've heard for years. 1 map, lol? dream on?

noone will like that.

generally: why not try to find a trade-off? just counted the maps.. i think there are like 20-25 maps often played cw maps around. some suggestions:

1) there is a big mappool; each team can pick 2-3 maps out of it (like eaql)

2) there is a small mappool - each team can pick like 5 maps out of it

3) theres an even smaller mappool (which is fine for every1) - all maps can be picked, but like 3 or 4 days before the match

just some brainstorming, if you got any other ideas or just some improvement suggestions, write them!

you really have to admin that not just you 'mapdepot = mappool' ppl got a point

so lets talk about it.

Jazzie · Post by **Jazzie** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 10:24 am

tommics, you answered your own statement.

i think the strongest team is good at all maps. it does not depend on the map. what do you fear?

A strong team shall be able to play ANY map. But still have a good feeling of this game and get a decent result.

And why oh why does everyone compare this game to counterstrike? It's like comparing pears to apples. cs is a huge, slow, tactics-based game. AQ2 is a small, fast, action(duh)-based game. (Now I don't say that aq2 doesn't revolve around tactics, but not in the same way as cs.) This is my opinion now, perhaps someone shares it, perhaps not. I do not want this game to become like counterstrike. I do not want it to become huge. I want it to stay as it is. That's what has made it survive sort of 5 years. Note that that part had nothing to do with the discussion.

Back to maps.

and i dont think the mappool will be that small.. so dont be afraid.

what do you fear?

I am not afraid. I can stay out of the tourney if I wish to. But you seem to be really afraid. "Yikes! What if a good clan would get knocked out by some random scrub clan?" GOOD! Freakin splendid! What is wrong with that?

Ok they might not have been as "skilled" as the other clan. But they got them! They won!

I don't know about you. But I want every clan to have a chance at winning something in a tourney. Otherwise you could just invite the clans that you think deserve winning. I want competition.

so some lowskill teams can own a highskilled team? really, where's the sense?

What if South Corea got a bronze medal in the football world cup? It doesn't really makes sense right? No, but it CAN happen. And that's where the point is. Don't make it even harder for smaller clans to achieve anything.

edit:

And just a small note. aqmd would make a neat mappool ;)

iler · Post by **iler** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 11:26 am

My last reply to this silly thread.

tommics why do you say at one point that the strongest team is good at all maps and at some other point you say that we should have small fixed map pool because ppl can't learn every map. It just doesn't make sence. If there is a lot of good playable maps why the heck shouldn't we play those? Oh of course, because we could make this game more boring than it is now. Neither of you germans have convinced me to change my attitude towards fixed map pool. As I said earlier it's the variety of maps that keeps this game alive.

Da^JuaN · Post by **Da^JuaN** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 1:05 pm

ToMMics wrote:what do you think why they limited the mappool in cs? in order to be different from aq? ... no cuz it makes sense focusing on some maps.

anyways to put an end to this senseless discussion. Every Team can play their homemap in ESAQL.

thats what the other thread is for. limiting the homemap to ONE is a good compromise i think.

Ok, Tommics. In my clan (same as yours

) we dont have one default homemap, because of the players. I mean, we play rok sometimes.. if you are not there, because you hate rok. If you play, we play cloud for example. It really depends on the players who are available that time, so limiting to ONE homemap sucks.

Kurupt · Post by **Kurupt** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 1:09 pm

miRRor2a wrote:@kurupt: maaaan, i didnt say i dont respect your skill @mesto (must be awesome, never saw you playin), but i dont see the point why it should be such a great deal to rape some team that has never pld or even seen the map be4? i feel better when i know that my enemy knows this map and that he is SKILLED at it. what you mean?

It's not our fault "others" never played / saw the map before now is it? That's their own decision. In leagues a clan's maplist is known weeks before you play them. And besides, Mesto is old. I think the map started to get popular like 2 years ago, when the Norwegian clan Gg started to play it. It probably just never reached Germany

And yes, AQMD would be a great map pool

Post by **dudemcpek** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 1:14 pm

Hehe kuwu. I think it reached Germany but they got scared

And ye, map is quite old and I must say ppl who made it didn't think it will be this popular..

When they found out it's homemap for some clans they really laughed

Post by **mirror** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 3:59 pm

hehe, iler and kurupt, thats exactly the point.

good clans should be good at many maps. but atm there are just TOO MANY maps. really too many. and if a team is really dedicated which means they play their map really often its nearly impossible to beat them there (as long as they are skilled). as it looks at the moment, every team will search its own homemap now, which means we can forget everything we've pld for several years -- ppl pick not-so-polular maps just to get an advantage.. and sometimes also maybe just because the other teams did the same.

best solution would be fixed playdays, with ONE map per playday.. so the team which is best overall would win. unfortunately thats not possible :<

and jazzie.. where is the point in giving less skilled teams an advantage? that would be like .. uhm, like you give the lower seeded teams in the soccer wm always some goals in advance, just to give them a chance to win. i mean thats not the sense of a competition

Kurupt · Post by **Kurupt** » Tue Mar 09, 2004 6:02 pm

miRRor2a wrote:good clans should be good at many maps

I agree.

miRRor2a wrote:. but atm there are just TOO MANY maps. really too many.

Not really, I want more

miRRor2a wrote: and if a team is really dedicated which means they play their map really often its nearly impossible to beat them there (as long as they are skilled).

If a team really is dedicated (practising, making tactics) they DESERVE to win their homemap.

miRRor2a wrote: as it looks at the moment, every team will search its own homemap now,

Isn't every clan searching for its own homemap for like six years now? Some maps are just a bit more popular in certain regions of europe then others. I mean, when I only played on the Dutch server we never played Cliff2. That started when we were getting owned on it by Danish and German clans. Back then Cliff2 was probably just as lame as Mesto is for you now.

miRRor2a wrote: which means we can forget everything we've pld for several years --

If you don't allow clans to pick their own map we can also forget everything we've pld for several years

miRRor2a wrote: ppl pick not-so-polular maps just to get an advantage.. and sometimes also maybe just because the other teams did the same.

That's just your opinion... Some people do enjoy playing Mesto and its kinda popular in scandinavia, k

Post by **mirror** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 7:47 am

yeah, slowly its getting effective

Not really, I want more

well, i'm really open minded concerning maps. i wrote it several times now

but it's not suitable for tourneys

If a team really is dedicated (practising, making tactics) they DESERVE to win their homemap.

yep sure. but where's the point if every team trains its OWN homemap so much that noone can beat em there? cause its kinda impossible for a single team to train ALL those maps. and you're right if you say that the maps have a different popularity in the different parts of europe.. but it's not just because of that that ppl pick some "bitchy" map as their homemap. it's like a tactic to look for some map noone else really knows and train it so much that.. well you know the rest -.-

and i can enjoy playing mesto, too, just btw

what about .. like a poll to vote for an european mappool? then we could really "analyze" the situation

Sovnig · Post by **Sovnig** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 2:49 pm

Hmm...

There's a difference between "normal" clanwars and leagues in my oppinion, a big one that is.

You see, "normal" clanwars doesn't really count for much, unless there's some sort of competition between the two clans playing or such.

Therefore I wouldn't think it's a problem that each clan's got a mapchoice and they can choose among any map on the server?.

Mostly people refuse to play a clan's map if it's called !&¤828sdjah.bmp and noone's ever heard of it, nor have it.

But as long as people have the map in their downloadsfolder, and it's on the server, then the map's usually being played without any problems.

And for leagues, I haven't competed in that many, but it's my impression that they've all had mappools which suited most clans just fine. Like a mappool consisting of 1 map pr. clan, and then each clan's able to choose three of these.

I can agree with mirror in not wanting to play !&¤828sdjah.bmp in the semifinals of ESAQL, but that'll hardly happen. Even if it will he'll probably've been warned from the start of the league, so he'd had the time to prepare himself. Don't you agree there mirror?

And again for the normal clanwars, those are just for laughs. IMO

grover · Post by **grover** » Wed Mar 10, 2004 4:01 pm

miRRor2a wrote:good clans should be good at many maps.

I agree. but they get so good at many maps, because they practice other clans maps.

So why don't you do the same thing?

sHoRTie · Post by **sHoRTie** » Sat Mar 13, 2004 10:40 pm

http://www.quakeworld.nu/index.php?page=columns&user=2

older game longer played, still alive (as aq2)

its the same discussion.

dont have to say more though beside:

lets assume there are 25 clans/teams and each clan takes a different map. so you have to practice 25 maps and think of tactics for each freaking map. thats a lot of time u have to spend to achieve it.

and if we assume that there are only 12,5 maps

then u have to get 2 tactics per map

fixed pool aka everyone picks 1 map what he likes would be ok. but there some freaky maps i really dont like the way u have to play it to have a chance to win.

my o.o2?