FOLLOW UP ON ANTI-CHEAT

Wr4i7h · Post by **Wr4i7h** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:29 pm

There is something most people here don't seem to understand: this anticheat is a personal project. If it doesn't get widely used, the author could just drop it for lack of interest.

I'm aware of 3 Q2 games being played at the moment: q2, gloom and action. I've looked at some servers recently, and the aclist command shows that players generally don't care to install the AC, even if they don't cheat. Forcing it could change this.
Furthermore, it seems a couple of loudmouthed people have problems with it and are spreading FUD around, intimidating potential users from installing. It's a chicken/egg problem: if few people use it, problems don't get fixed, and unless problems get fixed, only a few will use it. Forcing the AC could also nudge more people to go ahead and install it. Here in Portugal almost everyone has already installed it, and none have problems right now. Granted, there were issues in the beginning, but fortunately they were fixed. There remain a few who don't use it because they just don't care.

Oh, and having an unsupported OS is really no excuse: you can ask the server admins for an exception, and if you just buy a supported Windows version for personal use, the police really won't come knocking at your door. Trust me. And as a bonus, you get to run tons of wonderful stuff, like Freecell, Minesweeper, Solitaire and ABOUT 99,9% OF THE GAMES CURRENTLY OUT THERE.
(Go ahead and remove the link if it scares you.)(I removed the link because you're a fucking mong -Clown)

Having the AC enabled but optional on a server does nothing... it's a bit like saying "please don't cheat, unless you really want to".

And this is a bit out of scope, and I wasn't around back then, but when nocheat was maintained, weren't there servers requiring it?

Snake · Post by **Snake** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:18 pm

Wr4i7h wrote:There is something most people here don't seem to understand: this anticheat is a personal project. If it doesn't get widely used, the author could just drop it for lack of interest.

I'm aware of 3 Q2 games being played at the moment: q2, gloom and action. I've looked at some servers recently, and the aclist command shows that players generally don't care to install the AC, even if they don't cheat. Forcing it could change this.
Furthermore, it seems a couple of loudmouthed people have problems with it and are spreading FUD around, intimidating potential users from installing. It's a chicken/egg problem: if few people use it, problems don't get fixed, and unless problems get fixed, only a few will use it. Forcing the AC could also nudge more people to go ahead and install it. Here in Portugal almost everyone has already installed it, and none have problems right now. Granted, there were issues in the beginning, but fortunately they were fixed. There remain a few who don't use it because they just don't care.

Oh, and having an unsupported OS is really no excuse: you can ask the server admins for an exception, and if you just buy a supported Windows version for personal use, the police really won't come knocking at your door. Trust me. And as a bonus, you get to run tons of wonderful stuff, like Freecell, Minesweeper, Solitaire and ABOUT 99,9% OF THE GAMES CURRENTLY OUT THERE.
(Go ahead and remove the link if it scares you.)

Having the AC enabled but optional on a server does nothing... it's a bit like saying "please don't cheat, unless you really want to".

And this is a bit out of scope, and I wasn't around back then, but when nocheat was maintained, weren't there servers requiring it?

You just owned every single player or what-so-ever with this comment.

If by now there are those who still refuse to accept this simple fact, then i think hara-kiri would do the job.

It's sad to see those sad flame wars between players with some interesting ideals and mature comments. Please create a thread or something to that job elsewhere in the forum.
Give us a break. Stick to the topic subject.

The conclusion is, you use AC? Awesome, you're so cool!

You don't? Then:
a) You don't give a flying f*** about the mod;
b) You have your "strange" reasons.

Elvis · Post by **Elvis** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:57 pm

Ok, In my opinion the poll is quite clear that AC should be on every server, forced or not.

We as admins of z0r.nl have decided to enable forced anticheat.

BUT, we have taken some of the comments here into consideration, and acknowledge the fact that some people will have a hard time using anticheat for various reasons (Linux users, win9x users, etc).

Therefor we have started a project to have a shared exceptionlist for all aq2 servers. There have been some modifications in q2admin which allow servers to download this shared list.

For more information checkout www.q2admin.net

Servers who are gonna participate with this project are:

- aq2.z0r.nl:27910 #z0r.nl PUBLIC AQ2 Server (TNG) 27910
- aq2.z0r.nl:27920 #z0r.nl Matchmode AQ2 Server (TNG) 27920
- aq2.z0r.nl:27940 #z0r.nl Matchmode AQ2 Server (TNG) 27940
- aq2.z0r.nl:27960 #z0r.nl Matchmode AQ2 Server (TNG) 27960
- 193.189.160.34:27910 SiOL AQ2 Clanwar! info
- golar.net:27910 Golar.Net - AQ2 Clanwar!
- srv.eyecandy.nu:27910 matchmode hosted by #eyeCandy

Currently we're talking with other servers like catchgamer to implement this.

For public servers who still not want to enable forced anticheat we also made a list of clients which get FORCED anticheat when they connect (for when they have been caught cheating before), while the rest of the players can play without being forced anticheat.

Feel free to comment on this project, but please leave out all the personal flaming.

NRGizeR · Post by **NRGizeR** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 2:28 am

Wr4i7h wrote:Oh, and having an unsupported OS is really no excuse: you can ask the server admins for an exception, and if you just buy a supported Windows version for personal use, the police really won't come knocking at your door. Trust me. And as a bonus, you get to run tons of wonderful stuff, like Freecell, Minesweeper, Solitaire and ABOUT 99,9% OF THE GAMES CURRENTLY OUT THERE.

Are you really this dumb? I mean really? Yeah, I am going to download a pirated version of a crappy OS (and use it) for one 10 year old game because you want to force something that doesn't work in all clients... really? For the record, I've never downloaded, nor used any cheat in the... 9+? years I've played this game (not even locally)... Oh, and please someone remove that warez link from his post. Stuff like that do not belong here.

Btw, as for the number of aq2 players using Linux I can tell you that this number is growing all the time, and there really are a few of us nowadays, especially here in Finland.

For public servers who still not want to enable forced anticheat we also made a list of clients which get FORCED anticheat when they connect (for when they have been caught cheating before), while the rest of the players can play without being forced anticheat.

Now this is a system that I personally really like. People that have showed that they can't be trusted will be forced to actually prove that they aren't cheating, while others get a green light by default. This is how it should be as well... you know, innocent until proven guilty? and not the other way around. One question though, how are you going to go about checking the identity of people to know which ones to force or not?

As a side note I can just say that the reason as to why I'm personally against AC as a whole is that a system that has exceptions usually is, or becomes, a system that doesn't work 100%. Now if a no-cheat system only works to 99%, guess in which segment the cheaters are going to be. There are always ways to get around copy-protection, cheat-protection, etc, and if there are exceptions this only gets easier, thus nullifying the whole idea of a no-cheat system to begin with. I am confident in r1chs coding skills, so I am pretty sure that actually hacking the AC module wouldn't be an easy task, but if all you have to do is get your name/ip on a list to be able to cheat this task becomes alot simpler.

I personally would probably install the AC module if I had the possibility, but the fact still remains that this is a flawed system as long as you are excluding and/or making exceptions for even a small number of users.

-NRG

emperphis · Post by **emperphis** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:20 am

AC as a developed and presently maintained project should be supported and acredited by server admins due to the results proven to give so installation / configuration would be as fundamental as the r1q2 updated engine nowadays;

AC should NOT be forced onto servers except oficial match servers where tournaments or any other competition should take place. Why? Public servers are free servers, the only rule applied onto these should only be to keep it lamme/cheat free when this is verified to exists.

The current aq2admin team maintains this by banning people for the already well known reasons, i'm quite against this since the aq2 community is downfalling.
Fortunatly there are ways to invert this scenario, instead of having every server forcing a system that also has proven flaws as well as limited support and creating huge banlists denying the people that are cheating a new constant chance, lets just force those players to use the AC system (addacrequired ip/sn). If they are using an OS that does not provide AC supporting features they shouldn't have cheated in the first place.
A lot has already been said and discussed about this I believe this would be the best alternative to do things. It's possible, already discussed and going to exist on NFSi servers whenever the z0r team provides the latest update on their q2admin build.

angra · Post by **angra** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:48 am

We need a working AC for linux and to put in AC in apr so it's just pops up when you install it, so you don't need to install it on the side. It should be easy.

And then we can force it. mabye on the cw servers in the first phase.

And we need a download link on aq2worlds main page with "Download AQ2" For windows or Linux and you can choose R1ch or apr. so you don't need to read alot of shit to start playing this game. and these should have AC in them.

Btw nice to see a updated ac. thanks R1ch.

Wr4i7h · Post by **Wr4i7h** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 4:48 am

NRGizeR wrote:Are you really this dumb? I mean really? Yeah, I am going to download a pirated version of a crappy OS (and use it) for one 10 year old game because you want to force something that doesn't work in all clients... really? For the record, I've never downloaded, nor used any cheat in the... 9+? years I've played this game (not even locally)... Oh, and please someone remove that warez link from his post. Stuff like that do not belong here.

Did I say you had to download and use it? I stated 2 possibilities: ask an admin for an exception or download it. And I didn't even mention buying it. Wether it's a crappy OS or not is actually quite debatable (and subjective), but not a matter to be discussed here. FYI, if you are interested in gaming in general, you need Windows anyway. If you only play action, ask for an exception.
The admins have ways to check a user's OS, so it's not easy fooling your way into getting an exception without justification (although possible, yes). If an exception is approved, the user gets a password to use with his nick, AFAIK.
Eventually, IF this system succeeds, I bet some other dev will work on a cross-platform solution.
As for the "name-calling", keep it to yourself. It's that kind of stuff that shouldn't belong here. Apparently some people can't state their ideas without making apes of themselves.

angra wrote:And we need a download link on aq2worlds main page with "Download AQ2" For windows or Linux and you can choose R1ch or apr. so you don't need to read alot of shit to start playing this game. and these should have AC in them.

Yeah, that would be excellent and the only part that's impossible right now is having the AC in linux... but maybe, eventually that too can get done.

I'll say this again: this project can get dropped if people just ignore it... and it seems most players do ignore it.

Post by **dudemcpek** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 5:26 am

angra wrote:We need a working AC for linux and to put in AC in apr so it's just pops up when you install it, so you don't need to install it on the side. It should be easy.

Would you spend so much more time on making a linux vesion so that minority can use ac too? It's way easier and less time wasting to make a command for exceptions. Wr4i7h explained how that works.
And if downloading a single dll file and putting it in your Quake2 folder isn't easy, don't really know what is.

NRG, you're just being really thick about this subject. You love linux and hate windows, that's your thing in here.

angra · Post by **angra** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 5:57 am

AssKick3r wrote:
angra wrote:We need a working AC for linux and to put in AC in apr so it's just pops up when you install it, so you don't need to install it on the side. It should be easy.
Would you spend so much more time on making a linux vesion so that minority can use ac too? It's way easier and less time wasting to make a command for exceptions. Wr4i7h explained how that works.
And if downloading a single dll file and putting it in your Quake2 folder isn't easy, don't really know what is.

NRG, you're just being really thick about this subject. You love linux and hate windows, that's your thing in here.

I'm not a coder i just said what we need to force it. if there is a working linux AC there isin't any problem.

And if you are new to the game, you shouldnt need to download a extra file for something that you need to join a server if we force it.
I don't think it's hard to download a extra file. but you need to think about the players comming in and make it easy for them.

fuct · Post by **fuct** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 7:14 am

This is all well and good gents but at the end of the day the only excuse you can really give for not using AC is linux or another unsupported OS. Yes there are a few people who genuinely cant get it to work properly but EVERYONE else has no excuse.

Oh! and yea people are ignoring this and it seems they all have something in common geographically...funny that.

NRGizeR · Post by **NRGizeR** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 7:15 am

Wr4i7h wrote:Did I say you had to download and use it? I stated 2 possibilities: ask an admin for an exception or download it. And I didn't even mention buying it. Wether it's a crappy OS or not is actually quite debatable (and subjective), but not a matter to be discussed here.

That's just my point, warez isn't a viable option... you can't ask people to break the law so that you get your anti-cheat...

As for the OS debate, yes, it's subjective, but it is however a valid point since we have people from three different major operating systems playing this game.

Wr4i7h wrote: FYI, if you are interested in gaming in general, you need Windows anyway. If you only play action, ask for an exception.

Now this is irrelevant. What other games I play has nothing to do with the AC module for AQ2. I did write my views on the exceptions-game already, so read my last post again.

NRGizeR wrote:The admins have ways to check a user's OS, so it's not easy fooling your way into getting an exception without justification (although possible, yes). If an exception is approved, the user gets a password to use with his nick, AFAIK.

How would they do that exactly? There is no way that I know of that would enable you to successfully (and with 100% accuracy) determine the OS that I (or anyone else) is running. For example via the q2 client, it would be a string that is sent to the server. This string can very easily be changed to whatever when we have opensource clients. Or take an even simpler scenario: Cheater X boots a Linux LiveCD, starts quake2 from it, asks for an exception, then reboots to windows, starts his cheating q2 and uses the given name/pass. I'm sure some of these cases have been covered already, but I can guarentee you that there are still ways of getting your name on that list. I mean even if the code would be 100% working and correct, the guys that grant these exceptions are still humans, and as humans flawed.

Wr4i7h wrote:As for the "name-calling", keep it to yourself. It's that kind of stuff that shouldn't belong here. Apparently some people can't state their ideas without making apes of themselves.

I'm sorry if I did some namecalling, but bringing up ideas like "just change your OS" and posting warez links on this forum kind of qualifies you for "you had that one coming". Oh, and btw, you don't really sound like mr nice guy yourself.

AssKick3r wrote:Would you spend so much more time on making a linux vesion so that minority can use ac too? It's way easier and less time wasting to make a command for exceptions

I find this kind of funny actually; how you first argue that everyone has to use it, that it needs to be forced everywhere, and then in the next sentence, state that it doesn't really need to work for everyone... Doesn't anyone else see the problem with that reasoning?

AssKick3r wrote:NRG, you're just being really thick about this subject. You love linux and hate windows, that's your thing in here.

I don't like windows no, but that's not my point here. You (all of you) should understand that I'm not talking about your or my choice of OS.

What I'm saying is that I've asked questions and brought up issues about AntiCheat that I haven't really gotten good answers/solutions to (imo). The thing I'm worried about is that what you're going to achieve is forcing a set of clients/settings that in the end be just as flawed as NoCheat was (even when it was maintained). This would mean that cheaters would still cheat, and the only thing that really changes would be that non-cheating players would be more restricted.

I do appreciate peoples effort, and will to further develop this game, but I'm sorry, effort gets you no points if (note: IF) what you create doesn't work. I'm just asking you to think about how to solve these problems (or tell how if they have been solved already).

Post by **Clown** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 7:24 am

Wr4i7h wrote:Oh, and having an unsupported OS is really no excuse: you can ask the server admins for an exception, and if you just buy a supported Windows version for personal use, the police really won't come knocking at your door. Trust me. And as a bonus, you get to run tons of wonderful stuff, like Freecell, Minesweeper, Solitaire and ABOUT 99,9% OF THE GAMES CURRENTLY OUT THERE.
(Go ahead and remove the link if it scares you.)(I removed the link because you're a fucking mong -Clown)

Elvis · Post by **Elvis** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 7:40 am

so basically what you're saying nrgizer.

Since anticheat isn't 100% waterproof with the exceptions, we shouldn't be using anticheat at all, and just use nothing at all?

Isn't this a bit of a weird reasoning?

It's like saying....a plane doesn't need backup systems, because these also can fail. So we don't put up any backup systems at all, even though they stop 99% of the failures.

I would like to see your explanation why NOT using it at all, is better then using it with exceptions.

Post by **Clown** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 7:49 am

If you fuckers are forcing something that people can't use, whether it's one person or fifty, how can that not be a bad thing? You're actively stopping people playing a game on a certain server just because they use the wrong operating system or because the thing doesn't even work for them.

Then what happens... One player in a clan can't join a match server. The match get's cancelled. It was a SajhCo. match. To determine who is the champion of the world.

I WANT TO KNOW WHO IS THE CHAMPION OF THE WORLD WITHOUT YOU FUCKER'S CALLING ME A CHEAT!

Wr4i7h · Post by **Wr4i7h** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 7:49 am

NRG, do a reality check... piracy IS a viable option, there's no point in denying that. And i didn't say "change your OS". I meant something like "dualboot until the AC is on all major OSes" or perhaps "use your Windows box for games".

As for you, Clown, I said "remove the link", not "change the meaning of my post and insult me in the process". You couldn't make your ideas stand at the portuguese forum, so you just pop up here with a little vendetta, right? Well, I could just do with this forum as I did with #aq2world at qnet... getting the fuck out because of you. Congratulations, you're a real boon to the community.